Yankee Fans Unite

Sure, all teams have them. But how many playoff teams lost their top two starters for a substantial part of the year? We lost Wang for pretty much the whole season, and then we lost Joba for the last two months (yeah, he was back in the 'pen during September, but we lost him as a starter.) Tell me how many teams had their #1 (Wang) and #2 (Joba) out at the same time for a month or more and still made the playoffs?

You can lose a 4 or 5 and replace them. You might even be able to lose a 3 and replace them. You can't lose #1 and #2 and replace them. So, to still have won 89 games is pretty extraordinary.

(You can argue that Joba wasn't our #2, but he was our best pitcher during the time that Wang was out. So if Wang is #1, then I'll put Joba as 2, Moose as 3, Pettitte as 4, and everybody else as 5.)

That's how I see it, too, Rob.
I think the revisionist-historians who say the Yankees suck are merely jealous. 89 wins with this adversity is pretty danged good

Don't forget Posada, too. That's like the Sox losing Varitek and Beckett/Lester for four months. I know Varitek can't hit anymore, but everyone says he's invaluable to the pitching staff. When he went down in 2006, the Sox had one of their worst months ever, which included Boston Massacre II.

I'm more concerned about the position players. Damon and Abreu are probably good for one more year, but that's about it. I think Brett Gardner needs a chance next year, since speed is a much needed asset on an otherwise mostly aging team.

In my opinion, the two biggest losses were Posada and Wang. The next biggest was Matsui (because of how good a clutch hitter he is). Yeah, Melky regressed, Cano didn't have the year expected, etc. But if we don't lose Posada, Wang and Matsui for most of the year, even with the poor performances by the youngsters, the injuries to Jeter, ARod, etc... I think we make the playoffs.

I'm pretty optimistic about 2009. I do really like Gardner in CF, and I think he is getting the hang of batting at the major league level.

So what's the consensus...do you bring back Abreu?

No, and here's why: Bobby is going to want [and truthfully, deserve] more than one year. The outfield is jammed already, and we need to get younger and more athletic, especially in the outfield.

With Damon in left, Gardner/Melky/Christian in CF and Nady in RF, and Matsui at DH, there's simply no room. He's not getting any younger, and a diminished Abreu in 2010 [and beyond] makes no sense.

Sorry, Bobby. Pass.

Agree with Chuck. So the Yankees will probably bring him back (especially given the comments by Cashman about selective hitters).

I'm hoping we caught sense [but, like Al, I fear the worst]...

But what happens if Melky/Gardner/Christian don't get it done again in center? And I ask, with one of them in center under that premise, is that our best outfield? If Gardner hits .280, I would say yes, but if he hits in the Melky 2008 mold, we're in trouble.

It all depends on whether Abreu is a guy who takes care of himself. With nutrition and conditioning nowadays athletes can play into their mid 30's at a fairy high level. It would ill sighted of us to assume automatically that he can't.

If we can get reasonably similar seasons like this for the next 3 years, especially if we're specifically talking about 2009, then our best outfield may be Nady LF, Damon CF, Abreu RF.

I say if we can get a more dependable CF than the 3 kids, then letting Abreu get a multi year contract elsewhere makes sense. Let Gardner come off the bench, get some more ML AB's under his belt, and make a determination if he can replace Damon when his contract is up.

Can't move Damon back to Center, he simply isn't good enough a fielder anymore. Matsui isn't going to play there. So who if the kids don't work out? Nady? Abreu?

Gardner or Melky even if only for defense is what we have to put out there. Still better than putting Damon out there.

I've begun a new thread on the topic, but there's starting to be a lot of talk about Nate McLouth from Pittsburgh to the Yanks....

I think this season had a lot of things contributing to the struggles.

Girardi first, being that he is the main one responsible - fairly or not - for how the season goes. Girardi had nearly lost the majority of the clubhouse for a while. It wasn't the whole team, but it was enough of the team that it put their heads out of the game for a chunk of the season. The musical chair lineups brought about some of this. A veteran club needs stability. Girardi mixed and matched and over managed too many times and it didn't pay off. If the club were a younger one, who knows, but with this group it impacted them negatively. The silly stuff about allowing ADULTS only healthy snacks put things over the top and set things on a contentious level. I can only imagine what other things he did as manager that set the veterans back. Young players might take this type of stuff well enough, but not vets. They've been doing it their way too long and it leads to rebellion of sorts.

Injuries were tough this year as well. While every team suffers some injuries, the extent and timing of them put the team in a tailspin. Posada was the most telling absence that left a hole not only in the batting order, but in the clubhouse. While Jeter is the leader of the club, Posada is like his enforcer. With his injury the clubhouse lost a strong voice that might have gotten Girardi to take note much sooner about what some of his ways were doing. Jeter is too diplomatic to have it lead to a blow up which might have cleared the air.

A-Rod missing almost a month along with Jeter's injury got them off to their usual slow start. I think it affected his swing somewhat, as he was compensating for it. The off field issues with Madonna and his divorce didn't help things either. His mind had too many distractions from this and he pressed far too much. His numbers are still good for the season, but it wasn't timely when he was getting hits. I think Giambi batting behind him contributed to the struggles with RISP.

Jeter was playing hurt as well. The early quad injury was minor, but set the table. The hand injury was by far the biggest problem. If he didn't break his hand, he had it very damaged by Cabrera's HBP to it. It dropped his average significantly and had other trying hard to do too much to make up for his batting woes.

Damon was injured at a tough time as well. His bat was really missed and when he came back it took a while for him to be really ready to play. His arm is a weak throwing one when he is in good shape, it was worse after the injury. He also had an issue with Girardi sitting him during the Twinkies series and him finding out by seeing the lineup- not being told. I think this really had a bigger impact on the team than will be let known.

Pettitte was pitching hurt. While it might not have shown damage, his shoulder was such that he should have taken some time off. I think because Cashman failed to get any decent SP once Wang and Hughes went down, Andy pitched through it rather than have another hole in the rotation. The results weren't pretty.

Wang and Joba getting shut down killed the season though. It deflated the team and try as they might, they didn't get it together for Rasner and Ponson. Wang is the ace, regardless of him being young yet and not your proto-typical ace. Joba in the rotation helped shure that up for a while, but him being shut down ( I wonder about the true extent of his injury) finished things off. The team was rallying behind Joba, and the timing was horrible.

Matsui being down for the majority of the season hurt as well. His bat works like A-Rod's in that it gives others better pitches to see. A-Rod would probably be better with Matsui behind him than Giambi. I really don't understand why he didn't have both knees done last season. Yes the rehab is tougher, but both were bothering him the year prior.

Aside of the injuries though, the larger problem the team had was 40% of the plate appearances were by players with poor batting skills. Gardner, Sexon, Molina, Moeller, Pudge, Melky, Christian, Ensburg, Betemit, Attorney General. Add to that Cano's struggles, Giambi's struggles, Jeter's struggles, Matsui's struggles once he came back, and there is your lack of run production. The bench was terrible. Some could be made up, but not a third of your order.

There was some good through the season, Mussina for one. The Bullpen another. It also was probably needed to get the Yankees willing to make the changes they need to make instead of trying to patch up things.

I have better hopes for next season. Girardi is a question mark, I still don't like him so he won't get a fair shake from me, but I think he will make adjustments. There will be a number of changes in the players they have. Some good, some that will be tough to see.

All I can hope for now - for this season, is that the Red Sox get beaten sometime so they don't get another title. That will be unbearable.

Good analysis, Goat.

I don't like Joe Maddon or his pukes down Tampa way, either.

I don't know, to play devils advocate, maybe if injuries, line up changes, and candy bar issues unnerve a veteran team, we may have the wrong players? Hate the prima donna athlete that vacations in Hawaii for two months in the winter (while some freeze their tail off just to get out of their driveway and get to their $20. and hour factory job) who can't handle a little adversity playing a kids game and eating filet mignon every night. The contrast is startling.